Modern Mongolia - TL Research Thread

I love Znamenski's stuff. Are you familiar with Johann Elverskog's work?
Can't say I am, I'll have to check it out, I'm considering putting together a small reading list of interesting, helpful books of the topic, though, I must confess, I'm not an avid reader
 
He has some really great scholarship on the Mongols. I am fortunate enough to own a copy of "Our Great Qing: The Mongols, Buddhism and the State in Late Imperial China". He may have some articles more relevant to later Mongol history too, but they're still very good and provide a lot of insight about traditional Mongol culture, even if most of his work is a little earlier than the time period you're looking for.

This also looks promising: https://www.semanticscholar.org/pap...20th/8fba67b3eb20c6d02f6100b2e2704954b09e6a18
 
Respectfully, I don't think a Marvel super hero is very relevant to the thread.
OP does not say anything about not being interesting in fictional timelines.

"I'm creating this thread as a compilation of information, sources, research and timelines for Post Independence and Late Qing Era Mongolia based alternate histories."
 
As is, rather commonly known, Yumjaagiin Tsedenbal, both before and after assuming his position as dictator of Mongolia, requested annexation into the Soviet Union. Considering the continued purges during Tsedenbal's rule and the strong resistance to de-stalinisation, how do y'all think annexation into the USSR would affect both Mongolia and the Soviets? Would Mongolia become a hotbed for hardliners and anti-revisionism or would Tsedenbal's rule be threatened by revisionist elements he purged in real life? Additionally, how do you suppose it would affect border conflicts between China and the USSR?
 
As is, rather commonly known, Yumjaagiin Tsedenbal, both before and after assuming his position as dictator of Mongolia, requested annexation into the Soviet Union. Considering the continued purges during Tsedenbal's rule and the strong resistance to de-stalinisation, how do y'all think annexation into the USSR would affect both Mongolia and the Soviets? Would Mongolia become a hotbed for hardliners and anti-revisionism or would Tsedenbal's rule be threatened by revisionist elements he purged in real life? Additionally, how do you suppose it would affect border conflicts between China and the USSR?
If Mongolia is annexed into the USSR then it won't be able to prevent de-Stalinization, annexing it into the Soviet Union would be something that would provoke China, one of the reasons Stalin didn't IOTL was to not provoke the KMT and if done after the CCP takes over China would be the fatal blow to Soviet-Chinese relations, however it won't escalate in either case since in the first the KMT and Soviets are allies against Japan and in the second both had reasons to show restraint.
 
One of the best parts of learning is realising how stupid some of things you've said or asked in the past were. Of course, there are no stupid questions, only questions inspired by an involuntary lack of knowledge. Starting now, I'd like to start regularly correcting things I've said or asked, this is inspired by the book I'm currently reading, The Last Mongol Prince: The Life and Times of Demchugdongrob, 1902-1966, which provides, in passing, a good description of the league and banner system employed in Inner Mongolia during the Qing Era. SO, as the first in hopefully many, I will be addressing some stupid questions and statements I've made.

okay so, probably won't get an answer, but I'm looking for any sources on the rulers of the following leagues of Inner Mongolia in the year 1912:
This alone isn't a stupid question, but, the intention very much was. The heads (darugas) and deputy heads (ded-darugas) of a League were mostly symbolic and existed to preside over congregations of princes (jasaghs) from the banners of a League, of course they did hold great influence over the league and its politics, but they weren't exactly rulers of the league.

EXTREMELY interesting website archived on the wayback machine, it's got a lot of interesting historical details and lays out a significant amount of Mongolian history, all with the framing device of Ja Lama and the writers attempts to find out more about him. I'd highly recommend anyone interested in Mongolian history and specifically Ja Lama, read this!
This also isn't stupid, but I would instead, direct anyone interested towards the book Ja Lama of Mongolia, the Life and Death of Dambijantsan, which is a more polished version of the website provided in the original post. Still highly recommend, great read, and not too long.

I actually think keeping Sun Yat-sen around could be helpful, in fact, I think we need to very slightly change his influences and have him be even more popular in China. I think, if his policy of Five Races Under One Union was more focused on assimilation into Chinese identity (likely mostly Han identity in reality) and we have the Kuomintang either, keep Yuan Shikai on a shorter leash, or successfully overthrow him in a revolution, not only would the Chinese government be less supported by the Inner Mongolians, but we can create a more unstable China, like many other people in the thread have suggested. Although, if they are more successful, the KMT might have the power to create an even more unified China, which would of course be an issue for the Mongolians.
I still agree that keeping Sun Yat-sen around would be productive to Southern Mongolian independence or unification with Outer Mongolia, but my reasoning has changed completely. While, its obviously not 100% likely to result in Southern Mongolian independence, Sun Yat-sen had a relatively positive influence on Inner Mongolian left wing liberal intellectuals, indeed, the Inner Mongolian People's Revolutionary Party's Chinese name was the Inner Mongolian Kuomintang. I think the best possible outcome would actually be Inner Mongolian independence as a progressive socialistic state with ties to Outer Mongolia. I'd argue, based on what I've read more recently the true political struggle in Inner Mongolia was between conservative nobles such as Prince De and the more liberal youth such as Merse and Serengdongrub, and to a lesser extent progressive nobles such as Gungsangnorbu, though many of those progressive nobles strongly supported monarchism and the Qing royalists.
Gungsangnorbu and the nationalistic leaning socialist leader of Mongolia Dambadorj both insisted on unity between the Inner Mongols if their goals were to be realised. Thus I'd suggest, more influence from the Kuomintang would be helpful in allowing Mongolian progressives and socialists defeating conservatives and conservative nationalists and also in bringing together both radical leftists and more moderate reformers. It was, I would suggest, a lack of unity, the failure of the Inner Mongolian Kuomintang/IMPRP, and rampant corruption and opportunism in China that caused the conservative nationalists to rise to power in the 30s, thus, I'd suggest an Inner Mongolia with a closer relation to the original Kuomintang (not the later more right wing and highly corrupt Kuomintang of Chiang) would be most productive, likely, with Sun's approval, receiving proper support from the Comintern and installing a moderate socialistic regime in Inner Mongolia.

I'd say the key flaw with my logic regarding the Kuomintang was the mischaracterisation of the Kuomintang, painting it as the same Kuomintang which massacred communists and sparked civil war. This is very much far from the truth with the earlier Kuomintang happily working with and for Chinese communists and focusing far more on Chinese tridentist thought than on the racist, chauvinistic nationalist policies of Chiang Kai-Shek's Kuomintang. That, of course is not to claim no wrongdoing and corruption of the early KMT.



Finally, there is no single quote to summarise this, but I feel I have heavily overlooked the relationships and internal divisions of both Inner and Outer Mongolia. The two regions were far from being bipolar monolithic categorisations. Outer Mongolia was effected by divisions between the highly religious government of the Bogd Khan and secular Nobles, divisions between Bolsheviks, nationalist aligned socialists and the anti-communist nobility, and divisions between autonomy supporters, independence supporters and Qing loyalists. Inner Mongolia additionally, was effected by divisions between traditionalist conservatives, progressive nobles and left wing youth, divisions created by the Manchu as a result of the banners and Leagues, divisions between royalists, republicans and opportunists, and divisions between the western Inner Mongols and eastern Inner Mongols.
 
One of the best parts of learning is realising how stupid some of things you've said or asked in the past were. Of course, there are no stupid questions, only questions inspired by an involuntary lack of knowledge. Starting now, I'd like to start regularly correcting things I've said or asked, this is inspired by the book I'm currently reading, The Last Mongol Prince: The Life and Times of Demchugdongrob, 1902-1966, which provides, in passing, a good description of the league and banner system employed in Inner Mongolia during the Qing Era. SO, as the first in hopefully many, I will be addressing some stupid questions and statements I've made.


This alone isn't a stupid question, but, the intention very much was. The heads (darugas) and deputy heads (ded-darugas) of a League were mostly symbolic and existed to preside over congregations of princes (jasaghs) from the banners of a League, of course they did hold great influence over the league and its politics, but they weren't exactly rulers of the league.


This also isn't stupid, but I would instead, direct anyone interested towards the book Ja Lama of Mongolia, the Life and Death of Dambijantsan, which is a more polished version of the website provided in the original post. Still highly recommend, great read, and not too long.


I still agree that keeping Sun Yat-sen around would be productive to Southern Mongolian independence or unification with Outer Mongolia, but my reasoning has changed completely. While, its obviously not 100% likely to result in Southern Mongolian independence, Sun Yat-sen had a relatively positive influence on Inner Mongolian left wing liberal intellectuals, indeed, the Inner Mongolian People's Revolutionary Party's Chinese name was the Inner Mongolian Kuomintang. I think the best possible outcome would actually be Inner Mongolian independence as a progressive socialistic state with ties to Outer Mongolia. I'd argue, based on what I've read more recently the true political struggle in Inner Mongolia was between conservative nobles such as Prince De and the more liberal youth such as Merse and Serengdongrub, and to a lesser extent progressive nobles such as Gungsangnorbu, though many of those progressive nobles strongly supported monarchism and the Qing royalists.
Gungsangnorbu and the nationalistic leaning socialist leader of Mongolia Dambadorj both insisted on unity between the Inner Mongols if their goals were to be realised. Thus I'd suggest, more influence from the Kuomintang would be helpful in allowing Mongolian progressives and socialists defeating conservatives and conservative nationalists and also in bringing together both radical leftists and more moderate reformers. It was, I would suggest, a lack of unity, the failure of the Inner Mongolian Kuomintang/IMPRP, and rampant corruption and opportunism in China that caused the conservative nationalists to rise to power in the 30s, thus, I'd suggest an Inner Mongolia with a closer relation to the original Kuomintang (not the later more right wing and highly corrupt Kuomintang of Chiang) would be most productive, likely, with Sun's approval, receiving proper support from the Comintern and installing a moderate socialistic regime in Inner Mongolia.

I'd say the key flaw with my logic regarding the Kuomintang was the mischaracterisation of the Kuomintang, painting it as the same Kuomintang which massacred communists and sparked civil war. This is very much far from the truth with the earlier Kuomintang happily working with and for Chinese communists and focusing far more on Chinese tridentist thought than on the racist, chauvinistic nationalist policies of Chiang Kai-Shek's Kuomintang. That, of course is not to claim no wrongdoing and corruption of the early KMT.



Finally, there is no single quote to summarise this, but I feel I have heavily overlooked the relationships and internal divisions of both Inner and Outer Mongolia. The two regions were far from being bipolar monolithic categorisations. Outer Mongolia was effected by divisions between the highly religious government of the Bogd Khan and secular Nobles, divisions between Bolsheviks, nationalist aligned socialists and the anti-communist nobility, and divisions between autonomy supporters, independence supporters and Qing loyalists. Inner Mongolia additionally, was effected by divisions between traditionalist conservatives, progressive nobles and left wing youth, divisions created by the Manchu as a result of the banners and Leagues, divisions between royalists, republicans and opportunists, and divisions between the western Inner Mongols and eastern Inner Mongols.
You are a rare kind of person and I appreciate your existence and endeavors <3
 
Ja Lama / Dambijantsan / Tushegoun Lama
(Жа Лам) / (Дамбийжанцан) / (Түшэ Гүн Лам)
Dambiijaa.jpg

Ja Lama, also known as Dambijantsan or, Tushegoun Lama (by Ossendowski) was a well known religious figure, adventurer, bandit and freedom fighter in late 19th century and early 20th century Mongolia. Serving as a prophetic figure, (initially) claiming to be Prince Amursana's grandson, and (later) his reincarnation, he captured the imagination of many Mongols, particularly western Mongols by promising them liberation from the Manchu yoke in an era when oppression was increasingly bad. I would assert his significance is as a demonstration of what was on the minds of Mongols in the late 19th century and how that manifested, however, he also helps highlight the strength of religion and the dangers of dogma.

Born in 1862 to a Lesser Dörbet family in Astrakhan (Kalmykia), he was a Russian citizen, however, by the 1890s he would be in the lands of the Qing campaigning against Manchu rule over the Mongols. Its made clear by the account of A. M. Pozdneev from 1892, the hold he had over the increasingly desperate Mongolian peoples, he writes of his trip to a Mongolian monastery. "Yondon bicheechi asked me mysterously whether I had heard anything concerning DambiJantsan" " he (Ja Lama) later let it be known everywhere that he was going to free the Mongols from the rule of China and that he would soon return from the north with troops for this purpose. The bicheechi earnestly begged me not to conceal anything from him but to tell him even in confidence where or not I had seen any such troops on the march or at least where or not I had heard that they were getting ready for a campaign." During this period of travelling Mongolia spreading anti-manchu propaganda he would be arrested by Qing authorities and deported back to Russia, returning each time. While not necessarily significant, this somewhat reflects the later life of Prince Amursana who, himself, repeatedly fled back and forth from China to Russia in order to regain strength and raise his armies.

Upon the Mongolian declaration of independence in 1911, the west would hold out as a Qing loyalist stronghold into 1912. As a result, the Bogd Khan sent troops to capture the frontier city of Khovd in the west. During the era of the liberation of the western provinces, Ja Lama would contribute his own force of 2.000 men, fulfilling his promise to liberate western Mongolia from Qing rule. For his victories he would be granted high religious titles by the Bogd Khan and install himself as dictator of Western Mongolia based out of Khovd.

During this era he would build up his own autocratic western Mongolian polity, nominally within the Bogd Khanate. He would brutally suppress criminals and violently demonstrate his willingness to perform extremely violent acts against anyone who opposed him. His fortress at Khovd would become a centre of his activities in the west until 1914 when Russian Cossacks in the consulate at Khovd arrested the militant Lama and bought him back to Russia for arrest. This was initially used by Russians to attempt to discredit Ja Lama and demonstrate that he was mortal and could be arrested like anyone else. This, from what I can tell, along with his despotic and brutal regime in Western Mongolia killed his widespread popularity and reduced his followers to a small cult like group.

By 1918 he returned to Mongolia for the final time, now disillusioned with the Bogd Khan's government. At this point he would retreat to the Gobi desert where he established a new fortress near a small local village. He would, at this point, become a bandit, terrorising the region and any traders and envoys heading through the region. Opinions on him were polarised, some devout followers and some fearing him, however, he would remain here unmolested until 1922 when a force led by Baldandorj were sent by the communist government to kill him. They succeeded and his head was removed, it can now be found in Saint Petersburg, however, it is under lock and key as far as I'm aware and not for public eyes. Even today, his fortress in the Gobi is a tourist attraction and apparently holds a haunted energy.

PS: This is the first in a collection of abridged biographies of important figures in Mongolian history. I hope that these brief summaries can be an entry point to learning more about these figures or simply help in gaining further knowledge about the vast strokes of their lives and the impacts they had.
 
Gungsangnorbu / Prince Gung
(Гүнсэнноров) / (ноён Гүнсэнноров)
history_1482655006.jpg

Gungsangnorbu is a man with a conflicted legacy. He played a key role in reforming Inner Mongolia building a boys school, girls school and military school. In the earlier days he was very close to Japan and drew significant inspiration from their Meiji Period reforms. His schools had Japanese teachers and he also gained the patronage of the Japanese at points in his career. However, he later turned his loyalties to Yuan Shikai's government serving as the director of the Bureau Mongolian and Tibetan Affairs from 1912 till his death in 1930. Gungsangnorbu was one of the most overlooked but vital keystones in understanding Inner Mongolian, and even Chinese history from the 1900s to the 1940s.

Prince Gung was born in 1871 in Harqin Right Banner to the Banner nobility and in 1898 would assume the title of Jasagh himself. As Jasagh he ordered the creation of a boys school, the first of its kind in Inner Mongolia in 1902, and then, after a trip to Japan he would construct a girls school and military school in 1903. During this trip, alongside other members of the Manchu nobility, he would be greatly inspired by the Meiji Era reforms in Japan, an inspiration that would drive the first half of his political career. As a side note, multiple key figures of interwar Inner Mongolian politics such as Serengdongrub and Altanochir, were educated under his sponsorship and would not have assumed their vital roles in politics without his influence.

Prince Gung's relation to Japan would grow during the Russo-Japanese war, a war in which he aligned himself with Japan. As a result of the war, spheres of influence in Manchuria and Inner Mongolia shifted. A secret Russo-Japanese treaty in 1907 would see a line drawn at longitude 116 degrees 27 minutes through Xilingol League, dividing Inner Mongolia between the Russian influenced west and Japanese influenced east. This would further align Gungsangnorbu with Japan.

In 1911, Prince Gung aligned himself with the Royalist Party and was amongst the nobles who opposed the abdication of the emperor. During this time Gungsangnorbu and many other members of the Royalist Party took out loans from Japan, Prince Gung receiving arms and two Japanese liaison officers. In 1912 he would call a conference of Mongolian nobles from Juu Uda, Josotu and Jirem leagues, his goal in this conference was to convince the Mongolian princes to seek independence of Inner Mongolia with Japanese sponsorship. He also sent a messenger, Lubsangchoijur, north to Urga to establish relations with the Bogd Khan's government, however, nothing came of this. Additionally, at this point Japan had reached an agreement with Yuan Shikai's government and ceased any open sponsorship of Prince Gung or independence movements. As such, Gungsangnorbu would fail to promote Inner Mongolian independence.

Without the hope of Japanese or Outer Mongolian sponsorship for Inner Mongolian independence, he would be won over by Yuan Shikai and put in charge of Mongolian and Tibetan Affairs. Now in charge of Mongolian and Tibetan Affairs he established the Mongolian-Tibetan Academy in Beijing. His new goals were the modernisation of Inner Mongolia which he did by appointing students he had formerly sent to Japan, as teachers, educating Mongols on the new modern democratic ideas. In doing this, he wold continue to breed the next radical generation of Mongolian politicians, many of whom would go on to join the Inner Mongolian Peoples Revolutionary Party.

Upon Sun Yat-sen's journey to Beijing in 1912, Gung was likely one of the only Mongolians who had contact with him and his group. Additionally, when Sun launched his Second Revolution, Altanochir, a student of Prince Gung joined the revolution. Despite this however, Gungsangnorbu never actively interfered in the Inner Mongolian KMT and stayed relatively neutral, finding himself in the middle of a revolutionary young generation of radicals and a conservative old generation of nobles. During this era his power was heavily weakened by the warlord era, however, he was still nominally head of Mongolian affairs, and his approval was needed for most affairs regarding Mongolia, if they were hoped to see and success.

His power would further deteriorate into the late 20s with the brutal massacres and exploitation by Tang Yulin as well as the negligent rule of Zhang Zuolin. Because of Zhang's refusal to adhere to Prince Gung's ministry, its power was practically destroyed during the Fengtian Cliques rule. As such, Gungsangnorbu handed in his resignation in 1928, and, despite it being rejected, he would retire himself to his home under the guise of illness. Eventually he would exit Beijing entirely, living out the final two years of his life with his family in the Japanese concession in Tianjin. His absence would allow younger figures, most importantly Wu Heling, to take the helm, Wu practically replacing Prince Gung. However, after his death, Inner Mongolia would permanently lose a single unifying leader, with only Wu Heling, Yondonwangchug and Demchugdongrub coming the closest to reaching his level of influence in the region.​
 
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