Hall-Scott did build engines for the M25 Tank Transporter, though I can't be sure if they were Invaders.
Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
No I was talking about the amount of radiator space needed to cool the engine, you had more cooling available to marine engine as opposed to a land engine. An example of this is having a heat exchanger to cool the engine water/coolant and having the continuous flow of cool or actually cold water that is more efficient than air cooling a radiator.
Some engines also did not have water pumps integrated into the engine and were driven separately to make it easier to run the piping for the engine.
Its a nothing problem, engines the size a tank would use were routinely converted, normally it was a common core made in at least two of air, land and marine variants anyway, as in the case of the Lion.
No issue with it, other than the fact Britain did not really consider American material assistance until 1940 or so. The GM 6-71 in Valentine was a 1939 proposal at the earliest. Otherwise I noted in Alt AFV Part 4 that it was probably a very good engine for military adaptation at the time.
I can confirm it's an Invader, at least the bored-out version of it.
Yep, thanks guys. And Bougnas is right it was an Invader / Defender - to the excellent points of the others - it was called the 440 vs 400 version - bored out AND given a bigger radiator for cooling 
. I hadn't heard of them ( I live in Northern California close to where they were based and there is an exhibit close by I might check out). It really was a superb engine by all accounts and known for it's extreme reliability, ease of service - lots of redundancies in it but also a much more modern design than the Liberty.
Seems that when the war needed more engines - Hall and Scott had been sold off to Packard but still run as a brand - their engine still in steady production but Hudson were given the tooling and licence to crank out more for Low volume ( compared to say M3/ M4 engines) / High power requirements - eg Tank Transporter (lots of Torque!) and rescue launches.
They were also , and unusually for US Engines in the 30s, super charged regularly by the manufacturer and H&S were good at that too apparently. It was the Brits who - unusually pre war - came to US and asked Hall to put two togetehr to make a V-12. In 1937. Sold to the UK. For Motor launches. So that's a V-12 , 36L , approx 600 HP engine that was tooled, in prodction, being sold to the UK - basically a much better albeit Petrol equivalent of the Soviet, nevermind the neverquite right Maybach HL240 for Tiger/Panther. Years earlier. being sold to the UK military. Shit the Germans should have bought them instead of Maybach.
Oh the more you learn about the what ifs of UK 1930s Military procurement and design the more "Slap head" moments. This Hall & Scott engine "Makes my dreams come true".
Other features of this 1931/1937 engine - Came standard in interchangeable parts for left and right hand versions ( in case of need for balanced propellors or retro fitting), Land and marine versions ( also powered some rail cars on narrow gauges), featured 100% power in reverse which is a very handy feature when dealing with Tracked vehicles. So you'd have the Straighth 6 "Invader" Version powering Matildas or Valentine/ Victor Vickers things in the 250/300 Hp range in 39/40 and then with the same set of tools, spares, training the V-12 Defender version good all the way through to Comets etc. And if you want to licence production all the drawings are actually to a decent automotive standard and in Imperial dimensions. It's certainly not quite as efficient power to weight as a Kestrel/,W-12 Lion or Merlin/Meteor , teh weight seems very high for it's size, that might be the Salt water proof masive cast iron base it's mounted on, but it's a land based engine, turns the right way and is available. Or you could slap two bus engines together and hope to drive marginally faster than an Italian can run away.....
Some great info here.
. I hadn't heard of them ( I live in Northern California close to where they were based and there is an exhibit close by I might check out). It really was a superb engine by all accounts and known for it's extreme reliability, ease of service - lots of redundancies in it but also a much more modern design than the Liberty.Seems that when the war needed more engines - Hall and Scott had been sold off to Packard but still run as a brand - their engine still in steady production but Hudson were given the tooling and licence to crank out more for Low volume ( compared to say M3/ M4 engines) / High power requirements - eg Tank Transporter (lots of Torque!) and rescue launches.
They were also , and unusually for US Engines in the 30s, super charged regularly by the manufacturer and H&S were good at that too apparently. It was the Brits who - unusually pre war - came to US and asked Hall to put two togetehr to make a V-12. In 1937. Sold to the UK. For Motor launches. So that's a V-12 , 36L , approx 600 HP engine that was tooled, in prodction, being sold to the UK - basically a much better albeit Petrol equivalent of the Soviet, nevermind the neverquite right Maybach HL240 for Tiger/Panther. Years earlier. being sold to the UK military. Shit the Germans should have bought them instead of Maybach.
Oh the more you learn about the what ifs of UK 1930s Military procurement and design the more "Slap head" moments. This Hall & Scott engine "Makes my dreams come true".
Other features of this 1931/1937 engine - Came standard in interchangeable parts for left and right hand versions ( in case of need for balanced propellors or retro fitting), Land and marine versions ( also powered some rail cars on narrow gauges), featured 100% power in reverse which is a very handy feature when dealing with Tracked vehicles. So you'd have the Straighth 6 "Invader" Version powering Matildas or Valentine/ Victor Vickers things in the 250/300 Hp range in 39/40 and then with the same set of tools, spares, training the V-12 Defender version good all the way through to Comets etc. And if you want to licence production all the drawings are actually to a decent automotive standard and in Imperial dimensions. It's certainly not quite as efficient power to weight as a Kestrel/,W-12 Lion or Merlin/Meteor , teh weight seems very high for it's size, that might be the Salt water proof masive cast iron base it's mounted on, but it's a land based engine, turns the right way and is available. Or you could slap two bus engines together and hope to drive marginally faster than an Italian can run away.....
Some great info here.
Hall-Scott Defender Engines
Description of the Hall-Scott defender engine and its development. The history of the company, including it's life after WW II & Korea.
www.uscrashboats.org
Last edited:
The Invader also was available in a laying-on-its-side version, for installation under the rear-seats floor of 1930s buses. That version in a blank-sheet-of-paper tank design would require more hull width, but would be much less tall. Sometimes maximum hull width was limited due to rail/sea transport and bridge widths; but certainly hull height, and therefore glacis height, was a key determinant of tank combat survivability.
You could probably get Gardeners to do everything that your asking Hall-Scott to do.
Gardners are still in great demand today and similar to the Hall-Scott they are modular (1,2 and 3 block heads to make up various sizes), reliable and usually understressed so would take supercharging well. You could use a combination of heads to make a V12 or V14 if the ministry ask for one.
I would imagine that Gardners are already quite busy pre war and Hall-Scott probably have a greater manufacturing capacity. Usually if the British goverment went abroard pre war it was becasue it's local sources of suppy were already maxed out.
Gardners are still in great demand today and similar to the Hall-Scott they are modular (1,2 and 3 block heads to make up various sizes), reliable and usually understressed so would take supercharging well. You could use a combination of heads to make a V12 or V14 if the ministry ask for one.
I would imagine that Gardners are already quite busy pre war and Hall-Scott probably have a greater manufacturing capacity. Usually if the British goverment went abroard pre war it was becasue it's local sources of suppy were already maxed out.
Last edited:
18 June 1942. Damascus Syria.
New
allanpcameron
Donor
18 June 1942. Damascus Syria.
Major-General Richard McCreery, GOC 8th Armoured Division, had chaired the court martial of two of Free French officers which had found them guilty of gross misconduct. Ever since the coup d’etat which had ended the Vichy regime in Syria and Lebanon, there had been reprisals going on between those who’d joined General de Gaulle’s Free French, and those who’s remained loyal to the Vichy government. The ending of Vichy French rule had caused all sorts of problems, and these two officers, who were sentenced to being stripped of their rank and to two years hard labour, were just the tip of the iceberg.
McCreery was really not keen of getting involved in this, there were obviously fractures in French society which were being played out in the aftermath of the coup. McCreery, whose 8th Armoured Division was one of the most powerful formations in the British Army, was part of the Middle East Force’s reserve. His men had had time to exercise together with other units, not least the 7th Armoured Division.
When the coup d’etat took place, McCreery’s men were best placed to respond quickly, supporting the Free French units who were taking control of all the important sites and facilities. So far, the British troops hadn’t been turned on, for which McCreery and his men were grateful for. However, the British were finding themselves being caught up in policing the very fragile peace.
General Wavell had already been asked to send an infantry Division to relieve the 8th Armoured Division. With the progress the Germans were making in Southern Russia, McCreery was aware that his division would likely have to back up the 10th Armoured Division and the Indian Divisions of PAIFORCE. Just getting his men and machines to Iran would take time, and the longer the Division was caught up keeping Frenchmen apart from one another was time not preparing for war.
The one good thing about this time, was that it gave the Division’s and Middle East Command’s RAOC was to convert all the tanks to Valiant II and II* standard. Although the Division had sailed with a mix of Valiant tanks, the most recent ships from England had delivered enough 6-pdr guns to be fitted to all the tanks. Not only was the work of changing over the guns a lot of work, but even more had to be done to the turrets to make the transition from 2-pdr to 6-pdr shells. There were kits to do this, along with the guns, but it still took time to get it all done.
The Free French units were disappointed to find that more than half of the 12000 French regular soldiers were not interested in joining them. There was more success with the North African and other colonial troops. However, the large stores of artillery, other weapons and ammunition were much appreciated. There were two Tank Battalions (63 and 68 BCC, possibly also known as 6e and 7e Chassuers d’Afrique) with 45 and 50 R35 tanks respectively. The Free French wanted to take over to give them at least some kind of armoured force. McCreery’s staff’s view was that the French armoured cars (Laffly S15 TOE armoured cars, and Laffly 50AM) would be of more use that the French light tanks.
There were probably just about enough officers and men from the BCCs joining the Free French to have a complete independent company of tanks. Regarding the nine battalions of the Algerian Regiments, enough French officers and NCOs remained to lead just five of them. The nine Battalions of the Tunisian, Senegalese, and Colonial Regiments, all could muster only one full Battalion with officers and NCOs, while the Moroccan Battalion only had enough for one Company. The four Battalions of the Sixth Foreign Infantry Regiment came off best, with three Battalions retaining enough officers and NCOs. There were also 17,000 indigenous Syrians and Lebanese in various regiments, these men were of questionable value, though the promise of independence when Germany was defeated did help keep them in uniform.
The withdrawal of some of the Free French, along with the New Zealand Division to the Pacific theatre, meant that there was a deficit of the numbers of officers and NCOs that could be spared to increase the numbers of Algerian and other African battalions. In some ways it was the artillery and support services that came off worse from those who chose to return to France. It could be argued, as it was by General De Gaulle, that there was now the equivalent of two Divisions of Free French troops. It was clear to everyone else that neither ‘Division’ was anything like combat effective. Even moving the Battalions around, creating one complete Division, wouldn’t overcome the losses of trained and professional leadership.
In France, the news of the loss of the Levant brought about a crisis within the Vichy Government. The new Prime Minister Pierre Laval was summoned to Berlin to account for the collapse of Vichy control over the area. His self-serving replies had infuriated some of the others in Petain’s Government, not least Gabriel Auphan, secrétaire d'État à la Marine (Secretary of State for the Navy). The fact that Vichy control of North Africa wasn’t as secure as Berlin would like, Weygand was still in place, Laval was threatened with serious repercussions. The demand for more skilled labourers to be sent to Germany would now not be met with the previous agreement to release one French POW for every three workers going to the Reich. Also, the round up of the French Jews was to be hastened, without the exceptions previously agreed. Finally, the demand for the return to captivity of General Henri Giraud was given to Laval.
Auphan, through his contacts with the Marine National in North Africa, was in regular communication with General Weygand. It was apparent that General Henri Giraud could not remain in France, so he, with much of his family, were smuggled over the border to Spain, and then on to Algiers. Already in contact with the Americans, Auphan offered the possibility that French fleet would sail for North Africa, but only if De Gaulle was replaced by Weygand as the head of the Free French movement.
Major-General Richard McCreery, GOC 8th Armoured Division, had chaired the court martial of two of Free French officers which had found them guilty of gross misconduct. Ever since the coup d’etat which had ended the Vichy regime in Syria and Lebanon, there had been reprisals going on between those who’d joined General de Gaulle’s Free French, and those who’s remained loyal to the Vichy government. The ending of Vichy French rule had caused all sorts of problems, and these two officers, who were sentenced to being stripped of their rank and to two years hard labour, were just the tip of the iceberg.
McCreery was really not keen of getting involved in this, there were obviously fractures in French society which were being played out in the aftermath of the coup. McCreery, whose 8th Armoured Division was one of the most powerful formations in the British Army, was part of the Middle East Force’s reserve. His men had had time to exercise together with other units, not least the 7th Armoured Division.
When the coup d’etat took place, McCreery’s men were best placed to respond quickly, supporting the Free French units who were taking control of all the important sites and facilities. So far, the British troops hadn’t been turned on, for which McCreery and his men were grateful for. However, the British were finding themselves being caught up in policing the very fragile peace.
General Wavell had already been asked to send an infantry Division to relieve the 8th Armoured Division. With the progress the Germans were making in Southern Russia, McCreery was aware that his division would likely have to back up the 10th Armoured Division and the Indian Divisions of PAIFORCE. Just getting his men and machines to Iran would take time, and the longer the Division was caught up keeping Frenchmen apart from one another was time not preparing for war.
The one good thing about this time, was that it gave the Division’s and Middle East Command’s RAOC was to convert all the tanks to Valiant II and II* standard. Although the Division had sailed with a mix of Valiant tanks, the most recent ships from England had delivered enough 6-pdr guns to be fitted to all the tanks. Not only was the work of changing over the guns a lot of work, but even more had to be done to the turrets to make the transition from 2-pdr to 6-pdr shells. There were kits to do this, along with the guns, but it still took time to get it all done.
The Free French units were disappointed to find that more than half of the 12000 French regular soldiers were not interested in joining them. There was more success with the North African and other colonial troops. However, the large stores of artillery, other weapons and ammunition were much appreciated. There were two Tank Battalions (63 and 68 BCC, possibly also known as 6e and 7e Chassuers d’Afrique) with 45 and 50 R35 tanks respectively. The Free French wanted to take over to give them at least some kind of armoured force. McCreery’s staff’s view was that the French armoured cars (Laffly S15 TOE armoured cars, and Laffly 50AM) would be of more use that the French light tanks.
There were probably just about enough officers and men from the BCCs joining the Free French to have a complete independent company of tanks. Regarding the nine battalions of the Algerian Regiments, enough French officers and NCOs remained to lead just five of them. The nine Battalions of the Tunisian, Senegalese, and Colonial Regiments, all could muster only one full Battalion with officers and NCOs, while the Moroccan Battalion only had enough for one Company. The four Battalions of the Sixth Foreign Infantry Regiment came off best, with three Battalions retaining enough officers and NCOs. There were also 17,000 indigenous Syrians and Lebanese in various regiments, these men were of questionable value, though the promise of independence when Germany was defeated did help keep them in uniform.
The withdrawal of some of the Free French, along with the New Zealand Division to the Pacific theatre, meant that there was a deficit of the numbers of officers and NCOs that could be spared to increase the numbers of Algerian and other African battalions. In some ways it was the artillery and support services that came off worse from those who chose to return to France. It could be argued, as it was by General De Gaulle, that there was now the equivalent of two Divisions of Free French troops. It was clear to everyone else that neither ‘Division’ was anything like combat effective. Even moving the Battalions around, creating one complete Division, wouldn’t overcome the losses of trained and professional leadership.
In France, the news of the loss of the Levant brought about a crisis within the Vichy Government. The new Prime Minister Pierre Laval was summoned to Berlin to account for the collapse of Vichy control over the area. His self-serving replies had infuriated some of the others in Petain’s Government, not least Gabriel Auphan, secrétaire d'État à la Marine (Secretary of State for the Navy). The fact that Vichy control of North Africa wasn’t as secure as Berlin would like, Weygand was still in place, Laval was threatened with serious repercussions. The demand for more skilled labourers to be sent to Germany would now not be met with the previous agreement to release one French POW for every three workers going to the Reich. Also, the round up of the French Jews was to be hastened, without the exceptions previously agreed. Finally, the demand for the return to captivity of General Henri Giraud was given to Laval.
Auphan, through his contacts with the Marine National in North Africa, was in regular communication with General Weygand. It was apparent that General Henri Giraud could not remain in France, so he, with much of his family, were smuggled over the border to Spain, and then on to Algiers. Already in contact with the Americans, Auphan offered the possibility that French fleet would sail for North Africa, but only if De Gaulle was replaced by Weygand as the head of the Free French movement.
Good reminder about Gardner. they had all the tooling for LW 150 hp class engines - Cast Iron for Marine engines but Aluminium for Land engines. Don't get me wrong it would be a much better choice in early 30s / mid 30s. Issue is , like most British land engines - still a bit small, and even if modularised up, would struggle as a path to second gen - HL240/ Meteor class. then again with the development put it it might. Still would have been a much better choice for most of the A numbered 30s and or an option in the 6 ton.
Just a big gap between the larger UK truck bus engines and train engines, if only I dunno Vulcan made smaller diesel train engines.......Bloody unions
Here's another abreviated alternative history.
Dave the foreman at VULCAN tired after coming back from his first ever trip abroard in Denmark, spills his morning cuppa over his old mate George in the canteen at VULCAN Foundry in 1936. Sorry mate , I've some spare overalls. Haven't seen you in a while, what you been up to old fella? Oh been over to Frichs in Denmark we're working on this small diesel locomotive with them . put in a shunter and management want to try and sell some to New Zealand. . What about you? Oh we're making a tank now. A tank, Blimey can I see? Course you can, but it's bit behind, heavy bugger, trying to get 2 bus engines in it and pair it up with a Wilson transmission. A Wilson? Oh we were just doing that with our diesel, bit different from those steam engines we started on George. You're not wrong Dave. Still be easier I 'spose with a petrol engine, ours was this new little train VULCAN diesel we made. Oh ours is Diesel too, or will be if they get these bloody bus engines together, Hoping to get almost 200hp out of them but I doubt it will have that much Umpph. Almost 200HP ?- is that all, come and look over in THE BUILDING NEXT DOOR - where we have a 300 hp Diesel six cylinder mated to a Wilson transmission for this little railway car.... don' t have to wait for AEC, try one of these in it., we're looking for customers for it, it's a bit small for a train but the Kiwis be interested.
1st one made in 35 as a small shunter. Vulcan collaborated with Frichs in Denmark to get the small engine design. Wasn't a success commercially. Then in 1 37/38 10 of them were sold to NZ. 4 of them are still running on vintage tourist musuem lines in Christchurch. Here's some blokes looking at the Diesel 6 cylinder at a musuem in NZ
Nobody talked to anybody......... Ok now it is a BIT BIG - but would fit, just in a Matilda II. Much smaller than most 1930s Diesel Train engines, only problem with looking up train engine stuff is the non clemature of engine. And all the Train nerds ...honestly who would spend so much time posting on forums about old train stuff. Weirdos
Just a big gap between the larger UK truck bus engines and train engines, if only I dunno Vulcan made smaller diesel train engines.......Bloody unions
Here's another abreviated alternative history.
Dave the foreman at VULCAN tired after coming back from his first ever trip abroard in Denmark, spills his morning cuppa over his old mate George in the canteen at VULCAN Foundry in 1936. Sorry mate , I've some spare overalls. Haven't seen you in a while, what you been up to old fella? Oh been over to Frichs in Denmark we're working on this small diesel locomotive with them . put in a shunter and management want to try and sell some to New Zealand. . What about you? Oh we're making a tank now. A tank, Blimey can I see? Course you can, but it's bit behind, heavy bugger, trying to get 2 bus engines in it and pair it up with a Wilson transmission. A Wilson? Oh we were just doing that with our diesel, bit different from those steam engines we started on George. You're not wrong Dave. Still be easier I 'spose with a petrol engine, ours was this new little train VULCAN diesel we made. Oh ours is Diesel too, or will be if they get these bloody bus engines together, Hoping to get almost 200hp out of them but I doubt it will have that much Umpph. Almost 200HP ?- is that all, come and look over in THE BUILDING NEXT DOOR - where we have a 300 hp Diesel six cylinder mated to a Wilson transmission for this little railway car.... don' t have to wait for AEC, try one of these in it., we're looking for customers for it, it's a bit small for a train but the Kiwis be interested.
1st one made in 35 as a small shunter. Vulcan collaborated with Frichs in Denmark to get the small engine design. Wasn't a success commercially. Then in 1 37/38 10 of them were sold to NZ. 4 of them are still running on vintage tourist musuem lines in Christchurch. Here's some blokes looking at the Diesel 6 cylinder at a musuem in NZ
Nobody talked to anybody......... Ok now it is a BIT BIG - but would fit, just in a Matilda II. Much smaller than most 1930s Diesel Train engines, only problem with looking up train engine stuff is the non clemature of engine. And all the Train nerds ...honestly who would spend so much time posting on forums about old train stuff. Weirdos
If the fleet sails that will really put the cat among the pigeons. Firstly because it means DeGaule is gone and secondly because it's essentially the "mainstream" French military giving two fingers to the Nazis and returning to the war...
Could potentially encourage the "sword and Shield" argument with those who stayed claiming they were simply waiting for their moment. It would also allow the Navy to feel much better about itself as its likely they can successfully shoot their way out of Toulon and then be present for D-Day and other operations. More immediately there can be no arguments that France is not occupied territory in the same way say the Netherlands or Norway clearly is and that Vichy is a collaborator government with no legitimacy in the eyes of international law. There will probably also be a full government in exile established which should cut down on the issues post D-Day as it will be set exactly who is supposed to take over immediately.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
The latest post only goes to show just how crazy, complex the French were, for a lot of people they were more interested in fighting the political battles of the inter war years. Than they were in putting their differences aside and combining to fight their common enemy, Germany. Unlike the British and Americans, both of whom managed to form unity governments containing elements from both sides of the political spectrum. The French didn’t, and this will hinder them in getting their voice heard at the high table of international affairs. While the Soviets would have preferred to exclude Britain from the major conferences, and only deal with the Americans, as would have the Americans too. Both of them realised that they weren’t in any position to do so, and so the British were sat alongside the Americans and Soviets, unlike the French or Chinese.
RR.
RR.
It will probably get a whole lot crazier I get the feeling that its going to square up to both Charlie Gaul and what ever former Vichy faction forms will get into a fight over the shape of post war france. Heck if they look a lot more stable and reasonable I could see both US and UK being courted by both sides which may lead to a lot of interesting and intriguing post war France.
Bloody hell *insert No. Here* French Republic will be an interesting case to watch.
It would have been impossible to exclude Britain anyway as we were still to powerful at that point and while our Empire was destroyed post war during it we were too strong to dictate to instead of asking our opinion.
With France its more that the internal problems (some going back to 1789) came home to roost right as there was a massive fight shaping up on the doorstep. Also certain ultraconservatives saw the Nazi's as kindred spirits not understanding that while both were authoritarian the Nazi's were radicals after massive change rather than setting the clock back as so many on the French right still desired. Needless to say they paid for their mistake, both from four years of licking Nazi boots and also from being completely discredited post war (to the point the French extreme right of modern times is much closer to the blackshirts of Italy than the ultraconservative's it somewhat descends from.
You could sell tickets to watch the Saviour of Franceᵀᴹ find out about that.