My challenge basically revolves around making German unification occur in a way that results in Aachen becoming the capital of Germany over Berlin, Vienna, Frankfurt, Hamburg, or any other German city. I really don't have a POD in mind, but I've been curious why the Germans never considered it with all of the relevance it had in German history. My guess is, a sense of shame over the HRE?
AH Challenge: Aachen as the capital of Germany?
- Thread starter EMT
- Start date
Philip
Donor
You're curious about OTL? The answer is simple there -- the city simply hadn't important for several hundred years. It was a back water near the French border at the time of German unification.
Well Bonn, the capital of West Germany, was such an unimportant backwater that no one even inside Germany even knew it existed until the first chancellor of the FDR insisted on his place of birth becoming the "temporary" capitol.
Actually, that could be a way to achieve this. Have Aachen selected for capitol of FDR (for whatever reason) and then somehow make it so that Berlin doesn't become capitol when Germany is reunited in the 90s.
That's a post-1900 POD, though.
Only real way I can think of is if the romantic nationalists wind up running the unification. Maybe the revolutions of 1848 as a POD? that seems a bit cliche. Either way, you probably need this unification as more of a grassroots movement, not guided by any one state. If, say, Prussia unites Germany as IOTL, this isn't going to happen (unless the unifying prince wants to hype up the germanness of his new realm with symbolism...).
Maybe the new german confederation wants to renovate the city as a tribute to the past and a symbol of the future? This gets around the whole backwater problem...
Susano
Banned
Have you looked at a map recently? These days, Aachen is a border town. Bad for a capital. So, you need to shift the border a good bit westwards...
Susano
Very good point. Not to mention that since it was Charlemagne's capital it would probably have a lot of people thinking that whoever was arguing for it being the capital were planning to do. Not going to be very good for making Germany popular with any of its neighbours.
Steve
Susano
Banned
Susano
Very good point. Not to mention that since it was Charlemagne's capital it would probably have a lot of people thinking that whoever was arguing for it being the capital were planning to do. Not going to be very good for making Germany popular with any of its neighbours.
Steve
Eh, with early enough a PoD the border also IS westwards. And personally, I see no reason not to stress German continuity with Charles the Great, far too many people think hes a Frenchman anyways. Its just that with current borders (or also 1815 borders - Eupen and Malmedy made it worse, but not by much) its just not really suited as capital.
With my often mentioned 1648 borders though
its certainly possible.Valdemar II
Banned
Susano are correct Aachen only make sense as capital if Germany at the very least includes Benelux. Even with 1648 border the lack of control with the Rhine delta would weaken Aachens position.
Susano
Banned
Meh, not all that much, though. I mean look how east Berlin is with current German borders, and yet its still the capital... or how east Paris was in the context of the French borders of the 13th century...
Clearly, the major POD needed here is simply keeping Aachen important and a major German city (and probably the locus of an important German principality) until unification. That would probably take care of the border issue as well.
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Funny, I was wondering about this as well a while back. Good to see some other people are interested in making Aachen the capital!
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Funny, I was wondering about this as well a while back. Good to see some other people are interested in making Aachen the capital!
Here a potential POD:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_the_Silent
Wilhelm the Silent isn´t assasinated and lives 20-25 years longer. Under his rule, the Netherlands become less republican and federated, but more monarchist and centralized. After some time the ruler from the House of Oranje is no longer simple the Stateholder but the prince/elector/king of the Netherlands. The Princes of the Netherlands see themselve still as part of the Holy Roman empire. And as such they try to expand there territory. Flandern, Muensterland, Friesland and Westfalia come under their controll. In the 18th century the Netherland are one of the great german powers. And in the 19th century Germany is united around the Netherland. (But it is called Dutchland in Britain). Aachen, a city still on Territory of the Netherland, but more central for Dutchland as Amsterdam or The Hague, is chosen as the new Capital.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_the_Silent
Wilhelm the Silent isn´t assasinated and lives 20-25 years longer. Under his rule, the Netherlands become less republican and federated, but more monarchist and centralized. After some time the ruler from the House of Oranje is no longer simple the Stateholder but the prince/elector/king of the Netherlands. The Princes of the Netherlands see themselve still as part of the Holy Roman empire. And as such they try to expand there territory. Flandern, Muensterland, Friesland and Westfalia come under their controll. In the 18th century the Netherland are one of the great german powers. And in the 19th century Germany is united around the Netherland. (But it is called Dutchland in Britain). Aachen, a city still on Territory of the Netherland, but more central for Dutchland as Amsterdam or The Hague, is chosen as the new Capital.
Eh, Paris was still some 180km from the border, Berlin some 80km today and substantially more when it became the capital.
The cathedral of Aachen is less than 5km from both Belgium and the Netherlands.
Susano
Banned
Npowadays, and yes, I said as much that this makes Aachen a bad chocie for capital with those borders. I was talking about the 1648 borders (that is, the HRE including Belgium, the Nord Department, Alsace and Lorraine). With those borders Aachen should be sufficiently far away from the border.
Still rather close to the Dutch border. (ok, they are rather small and not very strong on land, so it could be doable.)
altamiro
Banned
Actually, after several centuries of insignificance, Aachen became more and more important in the 1840s again - it was prety much the first place (well before the Ruhr) where the industrialization spilled over into Germany. The first large-scale steelmaking plants in Germany were in and around Aachen. Most of the industry moved to the Ruhr area after the high quaility coal deposits became accessible there, but only AFTER OTL unification.
Thats a good point, but I don't think that industrialization alone is enough to make Aachen the capital. A new state will more normally make its capital the most historically significant or powerful state in its core region. So Aachen will still need to stay relevant over the centuries in order to be made a German capital (unless somebody wants to build an entirely new capital on the remains of Charlemagne's).
I was tempted to yell that that's completely unplausible in the 19th century.
It's obvious that the 19th century is the point of interest here:
No doubt, Charl's post-WWII scenario works; and before the French revolution,
"captial" is synonymous with "royal residence", which is absurd for a free city like Aachen.
The Knighthood-Emperor-Charlemagne-Barbarossa-couteous-valor-in-shining-armor-with-battlements-on-top nostalgy was most popluar in the early 19th century, the same time as Nationalism was arising in Germany.
People certainly had a taste for a reminder of past glory in Aachen.
For us today, the Carolingians might be a bit too ambiguous for having spawned France as a state as well. But for the emotional period of German romantics, there was no question as to their nationality (which is not unjustified, given that the native language of the elder family members).
I wanted to argue that these things don't mix well. But in fact they do. Even many of the Democrats had a soft spot for the kings of old.
I wanted to object that for a place like Aachen as the former scenery of coronations, it would be weird to have a Parliament debate rather than an Emperor being inaugurated. But then, the Paulskirche did the same in Frankfurt.
I wanted to remark that Frankfurt had a long tradition as a Free City, which makes clear that a (more or less) elected council and imperial tradition do not hurt each other. But again, the same applies to Aachen.
Finally, I wanted to note that Frankfurt has been a signifcant economic center and a populous city all the way form Charlemagne's days until today - with ups and downs, but essentially steadily. This does not hold for Aachen. Not at all.
So you would need very weird circumstances to relocate the Paulskirche to Aachen ...
It's obvious that the 19th century is the point of interest here:
No doubt, Charl's post-WWII scenario works; and before the French revolution,
"captial" is synonymous with "royal residence", which is absurd for a free city like Aachen.
The Knighthood-Emperor-Charlemagne-Barbarossa-couteous-valor-in-shining-armor-with-battlements-on-top nostalgy was most popluar in the early 19th century, the same time as Nationalism was arising in Germany.
People certainly had a taste for a reminder of past glory in Aachen.
For us today, the Carolingians might be a bit too ambiguous for having spawned France as a state as well. But for the emotional period of German romantics, there was no question as to their nationality (which is not unjustified, given that the native language of the elder family members).
I wanted to argue that these things don't mix well. But in fact they do. Even many of the Democrats had a soft spot for the kings of old.
I wanted to object that for a place like Aachen as the former scenery of coronations, it would be weird to have a Parliament debate rather than an Emperor being inaugurated. But then, the Paulskirche did the same in Frankfurt.
I wanted to remark that Frankfurt had a long tradition as a Free City, which makes clear that a (more or less) elected council and imperial tradition do not hurt each other. But again, the same applies to Aachen.
Finally, I wanted to note that Frankfurt has been a signifcant economic center and a populous city all the way form Charlemagne's days until today - with ups and downs, but essentially steadily. This does not hold for Aachen. Not at all.
So you would need very weird circumstances to relocate the Paulskirche to Aachen ...
Hapsburg
Banned
It's only a bad idea for a capital if you're a very warlike countr- oh, yeah, this is Germany we're talking about.